| Posted: 18 May 2008 04:10 | ||
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__________________ Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
~V~ |
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| Posted: 19 May 2008 14:32 | ||
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Second one with Aerosmith was a nice romp down memory lane.
You know that last one got me to thinking I sure wish Lex had turned out to be good instead of evil. __________________ |
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| Posted: 19 May 2008 22:19 | ||
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Quote: Yeah well Lex was destined to be Evil so there is nothing we can do about it.You know that last one got me to thinking I sure wish Lex had turned out to be good instead of evil. __________________ The
 MAN Rox and I stand with everything he stands 4, but I gotta have my girl Angelina wherever I go.
http://imdb.com/gallery/granitz/6624/AngelinaJ_James_14637943_400 ... If you need a good laugh, watch The World's Angriest Cat LOLRH you will laugh your head off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0omjqLTZGU |
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| Posted: 20 May 2008 15:00 | ||
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 Well they moved Metropolis from somewhere where New York City should be to Kansas after all. Lois hanging out with Clark before Clark was Superman, Jimmy Olsen almost as young as Clark, etc. They could have changed the Smallville Luthor into a good guy if they wanted. Oh well.  __________________ |
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| Posted: 20 May 2008 15:25 | ||
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Lex just died thinking he was saving the entire world...where's the evil in that? __________________ Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
~V~ |
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| Posted: 20 May 2008 15:52 | ||
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He was still evil. He killed his father, he back stabbed Chloe getting her arrested.
Even if you give him the benefit of the doubt toward the end, he was still murdering an innocent man, namely Clark Kent. Here's the thing to keep in mind. A lot of murderers, crooks, etc and lunatics see themselves as righteous in their own eyes regardless of what crimes they commit. People tend to justify their own actions. I bet if you interviewed a 100 people in jail 80 percent or more of violent offenders would claim they didn't deserve to be there or at least that deep down they were actually really nice people. It would have been cool if Lex had at the end said, Clark I was wrong. I'll face up to my crimes and what can I do to help you keep your secret safe. Instead of Clark I must kill you. __________________ |
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| Posted: 20 May 2008 15:53 | ||
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But don't get me wrong I still enjoyed the ending. Sometimes a good ending doesn't always give us what we want. __________________ |
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| Posted: 20 May 2008 22:19 | ||
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Very true __________________ The
MAN Rox and I stand with everything he stands 4, but I gotta have my girl Angelina wherever I go.
http://imdb.com/gallery/granitz/6624/AngelinaJ_James_14637943_400 ... If you need a good laugh, watch The World's Angriest Cat LOLRH you will laugh your head off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0omjqLTZGU |
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| Posted: 20 May 2008 23:06 | ||
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Quote:
I'll face up to my crimes and what can I do to help you keep your secret safe. Instead of Clark I must kill you. __________________ Again, he thought he was protecting the world from a threat he thought he had to sacrifice himself to ensure the destruction of and thus the continued survival of humanity. It wasn't cold blooded murder or for selfish gain. There's no denying that his previous actions were 'wrong' to different extents, whether evil or just calculated but it was his final act that determined the true nature of the character. Sitting on the outside and viewing it as 'he's killing the good guy' completely misses the point, at least in my opinion. We lost the two dimensional black hat/white hat, good vs evil basic characters decades ago-storytelling can't afford to be that simple anymore. __________________ Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
~V~ |
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| Posted: 21 May 2008 15:01 | ||
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I get you, I'm just saying that regardless as to how Lex saw himself, his acts, even what he determined to be a selfless act to save humanity was still one of pure evil.
I mean put into a real life context. Say someone decides to save the world they must rob a bank. Does that make it right because it makes them feel like they are doing something good? Quote: Well I'll go along with you in saying that a character who believes he's doing right even while doing evil is a lot more deep and interesting some times than a simplistic character. Although I also enjoy watching the traditional bad guy character who knows he's evil and just doesn't care as well. Some villains just revel in their evil because it makes them feel tough. The old fashioned villain would look at the hero as a wimp for trying to do the right thing.We lost the two dimensional black hat/white hat, good vs evil basic characters decades ago-storytelling can't afford to be that simple anymore. __________________ |
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| Posted: 21 May 2008 21:06 | ||
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I think that Lex loves to be evil sometimes because he even killed his own father in cold blood. __________________ The
MAN Rox and I stand with everything he stands 4, but I gotta have my girl Angelina wherever I go.
http://imdb.com/gallery/granitz/6624/AngelinaJ_James_14637943_400 ... If you need a good laugh, watch The World's Angriest Cat LOLRH you will laugh your head off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0omjqLTZGU |
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| Posted: 21 May 2008 21:30 | ||
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Another thing that came to my mind is the layers of evil that exist within an individual. Like in Lex's case he finds no problem killing his father, but when he believes the entire human race is in danger he has to act.
But of course one could say that Lex just does what suits him and fabricates a justification for it as he goes along. __________________ |
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| Posted: 21 May 2008 23:14 | ||
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ya know another thing is that Lex thinks he can protect the world but he can't even protect himself. __________________ The
MAN Rox and I stand with everything he stands 4, but I gotta have my girl Angelina wherever I go.
http://imdb.com/gallery/granitz/6624/AngelinaJ_James_14637943_400 ... If you need a good laugh, watch The World's Angriest Cat LOLRH you will laugh your head off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0omjqLTZGU |
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| Posted: 21 May 2008 23:47 | ||
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It's like the good Book says, pride goeth before a fall, and rich power hungry guys like Lex corner the market in pride. __________________ |
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| Posted: 22 May 2008 01:51 | ||
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Quote:
even what he determined to be a selfless act to save humanity was still one of pure evil Just out of curiosity-how is Lex killing Clark any different than when Clark killed Brainiac from each of these character's viewpoints? Stay to those moments alone and consider that none of them actually thinks they're a 'hero' or 'villain'. Also, just for a moment, realize Clark was acting more selfishly of the two out of concern for two of the women he loves versus Lex trying to 'save the world'. Compound that with Clark never risking his personal safety and Lex sacrificing his own life. __________________ Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
~V~ |
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| Posted: 22 May 2008 02:09 Last Edited By: Aerolectric | ||
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^ There's some food for thought.
(not completely realted to what we're talking about but rather cool nonetheless)  __________________ |
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| Posted: 22 May 2008 14:19 | ||
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That's a awesome pic!
Quote: First Clark stayed true to his moral code of not killing a human since Braniac was only a machine.
how is Lex killing Clark any different than when Clark killed Brainiac from each of these character's viewpoints Second before Lex tries to kill Clark he goes into his spill about how Clark should have trusted him and they could have worked together and all that. This could be revealing his true motivation which is revenge for what he considers a betrayal. If Lex and Clark were still buddies in good standing do you think Lex would have attacked Clark so readily? Also watching the last video again, notice how Lex gets all hyped up as he rants about his birthright. His motivation here shows selfishness. He puts his quest to have purpose in life over the life of another person. I also think he's reaching trying to explain away his bad relationship with his father and all the things that have happened in his life. He's not trying to save humanity for the sake of humanity but for the sake of having meaning and purpose in his own life. His self centered view of life prevents him from even contemplating that Clark could very well be good for the world, maybe Clark could do more good than Lex ever could. I should have been a shrink. __________________ |
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| Posted: 22 May 2008 14:32 | ||
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Sweet pic I like that. I should send that one to my girl.__________________ The
MAN Rox and I stand with everything he stands 4, but I gotta have my girl Angelina wherever I go.
http://imdb.com/gallery/granitz/6624/AngelinaJ_James_14637943_400 ... If you need a good laugh, watch The World's Angriest Cat LOLRH you will laugh your head off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0omjqLTZGU |
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| Posted: 23 May 2008 01:04 | ||
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Quote: 1)Killing is killing, and 2) Clark is not a human either
Clark stayed true to his moral code of not killing a human Quote: They have not been buddies for a few seasons now and if it was a simple matter of revenge, why'd he stay by Clark to die with him?
If Lex and Clark were still buddies in good standing do you think Lex would have attacked Clark so readily? Quote:
notice how Lex gets all hyped up Maybe you missed Clark getting 'hyped up' before killing Brainiac? Quote: Again, he would not have sacrificed himself if that were the case.
He puts his quest to have purpose in life over the life of another person Quote:
I should have been a shrink uhm....no, not even close...sorry  __________________ Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
~V~ |
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| Posted: 23 May 2008 01:13 | ||
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 __________________ |
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| Posted: 23 May 2008 15:05 | ||
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Quote: Killing Braniac is like unplugging my computer. Would that make me evil?
1)Killing is killing, and 2) Clark is not a human either Quote: To fit into his own delusions of self righteousness. Sure in his own way he could have loved Clark like a brother, but as we'd seen with Lex's dad and cloned brother it doesn't pay to be part of the Luthor family. It doesn't even pay to be a childhood friend. He had one of those killed too.
They have not been buddies for a few seasons now and if it was a simple matter of revenge, why'd he stay by Clark to die with him? Quote: If he were smart he would have had a longer conversation with Clark before determining the only course of action was murder suicide.
Again, he would not have sacrificed himself if that were the case. I enjoy psychology. It's very interesting trying to guess at what makes someone tick. __________________ |
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| Posted: 23 May 2008 21:15 Last Edited By: itzabird | ||
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PURE unadulterated evil has no capacity for love--agree?
Remember now those important last words from Lex, "I love you like a brother" I submit Lex was not "pure evil". Flip Side I feel that when Clark kidnapped Lana from Lex/Lana engagement party, he was just seconds away from killing Lex , and would have if mom didn't get there when she did. (I know Red K was a factor) but how much of Clark was consumed with jelousy and rage,( don't tell me he didn't have feelings anybody--we have all seen him cry!!)If Lex hadn't stabbed him could he have done it anyway at that point? He was reacting to an eruption of emotion.The comic book says "He can't kill" but we know all kinds of exceptions to the comic have changed Smallville bigtime and things are not written in stone..as in the comic--- After wards, next morning, sitting on the steps with mom, Clark tells her he is NOT sure it was the RedK, pondering IF he DID, INDEED have the capacity for killing Lex-- That was coming from Clark-Superman--in his own head--he did NOT know!! Wow!
At one time someone told Clark he "couldn't be a killer just because he was on RedK", remember that--but he almost did Lex in--Red K may have pushed it, but my bet is seething jelously could have taken Lex's life all by itself. He was almost there-- if Mom hadn't brought him back the deed could have been done (and "RedK would not make him a killer", it was told him) So Clark very well may not be "pure unadulterated Good". That was a good scene the writer's probably tossed around a bit, with the same "what ifs"! No one is "pure evil" or "pure good"--And MAYBE no Kryptonian either!! As Lex had the capacity for love, Clark had the capacity for hate-- There is a fine line they say, I totally agree. This is a really good discussion by the way. |
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| Posted: 24 May 2008 01:28 | ||
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Quote:
No one is "pure evil" or "pure good"-- Could not agree more-that last episode was a perfect example. Quote:
This is a really good discussion by the way That's what a forum's for. You adding to it made it better.
Quote:
Killing Braniac is like unplugging my computer I love our exchanges Tim-we have not had one in a while. Brainiac is not like your computer, he was/is a sentient and self aware mechanical life form. For more examples of these from other pieces of fiction; Blade Runner A.I. 2001: a space odyssey The Matrix Short Circuit Electric Dreams I Robot There are many more but that's a plentiful list for the example. In fiction something does not have to be human to be alive- Clark ended the life of someone, he did not just pull the plug on a lifeless appliance. Quote:
To fit into his own delusions of self righteousness. Sure in his own way he could have loved Clark like a brother, but as we'd seen with Lex's dad and cloned brother it doesn't pay to be part of the Luthor family. It doesn't even pay to be a childhood friend. He had one of those killed too. You told me you understood what I was saying but this shows me you might actually not be getting it. We can't forget what each of these characters has done and gone through to reach the place they each had by that point. The vital thing to pay attention to is that when Lex and Clark each decided to take those respective lives, it had absolutely nothing to do with their pasts, their upbringing, or previous actions they had each taken. They BOTH killed in order to protect other people. In Clark's case that amounted to people in Clark's immediate circle because of what happened specifically to Lana and then Chloe recently. Maybe there were lingering issues after the Lex/Zod thing, more than likely a total hatred for knowing at least on a subconscious level that Brainiac was directly responsible for the destruction of Krypton, and finally to definitely 'payback' for what he thinks was Kara's demise(not knowing she's tucked away in the PZ). All of that really boils down to Clark watching out for people already close to him and taking the easy solution of killing the problem. You can't really be saying a moral code even exists here-it simply does not. As for Lex... We know he's the bad guy-he was simply trained for the part and lived up to it. We saw him have his clone offed and watched him kill his own father(neither of which he ever claimed to love, except as a deceipt, just for the record). We watched him torture meteor freaks and a couple of justice leaguers. We watched him create weapons with absolutely no regard to the disastrous side effects they produced. He's the bad guy of the story, we get it-he's even said it himself. He's also the guy that remembers slamming into Clark at 50 mph and it having no effect. He's also the guy that's seen the damage that these metahumans around him can summon at a whim and the danger they pose to the human race. He's had exposure to several Kryptonians-the two from the ship that almost killed Lana and half of Smallville after the second meteor shower, Brainiac, probably some sort of memory of having Zod as a live-in. Then there's all the different farmboys. The red K one who makes a better bad boy than him, the emancipated Kal-El, the kid who always does the unexplainable, and the recent bizarro one. Small wonder he would consider the one who lied to him all this time, out of all that mess, would be a serious threat. Small wonder that he would think (whether a delusion or not is debatable) that eliminating this threat is the thing he was trained for his entire life. If it was a matter of being self-righteous or just being ruler of the world-he would have found a way to 'use' Clark or if no way could be found, he would resort to destroying Clark but not taking himself out at the same time. He would be smart enough to avoid that death for the simple reason to be here to keep defending us and making a fortune at it, while building up his 'man for the people' rep we know very well from the comics just to keep amassing power-the kid with the most toys. It wasn't like that. From what he's seen of these beings, from his father's various obsessions, from all the mysteries and betrayals he's been through, from the warning brought to him by the blonde angel who saved his life-he did what he knew he must do, what he trained to do, what he was destined to do-at no personal gain to himself. Think about it-he didn't even record the occasion for others to know what he'd done. He seized his destiny. Side note-he didn't kill that childhood friend, that was an accident-excellent episode-watch it again. PS If you can't think of an irredeemable bad guy turning around and doing the right thing in a last heroic act, think back to Return of the Jedi. Quote:
I enjoy psychology. It's very interesting trying to guess at what makes someone tick. You need a lot more training.  __________________ Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
~V~ |
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| Posted: 24 May 2008 01:29 | ||
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Wow-that's like a magazine article length- kindly take the 'I'm sorry' or 'You're welcome' as you see fit. __________________ Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
~V~ |
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| Posted: 25 May 2008 05:57 | ||
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And as an after thought recall Lex had saved himself from the underground collapse in the tunnels where later a timber or pillar had Clark pinned down because(he), Clark had gone in at grave danger to himself to look for Lex! Altho Lex was free thru an opening, he then went back thru and got Clark. Just like people who care for the other--"loving brothers" would do. There, more good is again shown in Lex. Lex said "Did you think I woudn't come back for you" And with great effort and danger to himself--he got Clark to safety.
Absolutely saved Clark's life ( this was another Season, I think 6) before his "dark" set in. But it was an act of that "brotherly love" he vowed at the end of Season 7, still there. Interesting. |
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| Posted: 25 May 2008 19:44 Last Edited By: Tim | ||
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Quote: Well just how aware is he. Does he commit evil acts as part of a malfunction to his programming? Does he feel guilt, sadness, joy, etc? The biggest question can you say he's human, and even if you prove he is some form of life does it matter to Clark who was brought up to respect human life, and probably animal life to a lesser degree, but I bet Jonathan never told Clark to reverence machine life. I'd say AI never came up in all of those lectures.he was/is a sentient and self aware mechanical life form
Quote: You need a lot more training. Hmmm....mmm
Quote: I had a easier time believing Darth Vader had turned from the Dark side because he was actually attacking a bad guy to save his son's life. He was on the right side, but Lex even if he had good intentions was still on the wrong side.
If you can't think of an irredeemable bad guy turning around and doing the right thing in a last heroic act, think back to Return of the Jedi. Here's my main point though. Sometimes a bad guy or even a good guy thinks he's doing something good when he's still doing something evil. Lex may have felt all warm inside by killing Clark to save humanity, but the fact is he was still committing an evil act, and since Lex never really did much of anything good the last couple of years, I'd say that makes him evil through and through as far as his character goes. Now if Lex had had accidentally killed Clark while trying to save humanity and just goofed something up, I might agree he had changed at the end. Another point is that even a bad guy can feel brotherly love and friendship towards others, but as we've seen the end result of Lex's friendship is very unpleasant. Like I love you, but I got to kill you anyway. That's not very friendly. I hope I explained myself well. I stayed up to like 12 midnight changing out my floor. I hate carpet. Boy am I tired.  __________________ |
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| Posted: 25 May 2008 21:34 | ||
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You've been pacing the floor tooo much with all this deep stuff and now look, no nap on your rug.!Sounds like we need to go back to Cain and Abel for advice.
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| Posted: 26 May 2008 16:49 | ||
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It's good to get all this deep comic book type stuff off of my chest. Not everybody is into comic book mythos.
I'm surprised about how much my wife is picking up over the years just listening to me. I think she's only read one comic book in her life. All she gets is what I say and what we watch on the tube. Of course she's a Smallville fan too, but just not a comic book fan. __________________ |
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| Posted: 26 May 2008 18:20 | ||
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Quote:
Does he commit evil acts Brainiac wouldn't consider any action good or evil, just a means to an end. This is similar to a raccoon knocking over your garbage can looking for a meal or your computer doing a virus scan you prompted it to-they were programmed for it. Morality doesn't play a factor here. Quote: Not human does not equal not alive in fiction-matter of fact animals and plant life are alive and they're not human and we all know this already.
The biggest question can you say he's human Quote:
Sometimes a bad guy or even a good guy thinks he's doing something good when he's still doing something evil Like Chloe hacking government websites or Clark killing Brainiac? I think what you're talking about might be when someone does something that they know is wrong and try to justify it to themselves to actually commit the act or in the case of a 'bad guy'-justifying it after the fact. Usually bad guys do bad things and just ignore the wrongness of it. We have Clark killing Brainiac to stop him from going after other people Clark cares about(and I still believe a revenge motive for Kara's apparent death). We can extend that out and say maybe Clark is trying to prevent that from happening to -anyone- else. We can try and justify it saying he just put a machine to sleep but again, like it or don't, Brainiac was a living thing and Clark killed it. That's a good guy doing a 'bad thing' for (hopefully) right reasons. On the other side of the coin we have Lex killing what he believes to be an alien threat to the entire human race. This moment has nothing to do with what he did to his father or his brother's clone. It had nothing to do with what he did even to Jimmy or Chloe in the same episode. Clark isn't human but he is alive and Lex has been led to believe that the alien is absolutely a threat to all of humanity, not just from what Brainiac posing as Kara told him but all the odd things that he's seen with his own eyes involving Clark and all the other meteor-affected. Lex also did a 'bad thing' for obviously right reasons. Quote:
if Lex had accidentally killed Clark while trying to save humanity and just goofed something up, I might agree he had changed at the end. Me too. That would mean he got stupid and/or clumsy. __________________ Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
~V~ |
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| Posted: 26 May 2008 21:30 | ||
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Killing Braniac is definitely not like killing a human on the moral scale. It would be like comparing killing a dog to killing a human, and that's if I concede Braniac as living entity.
Quote: I would say that was wrong due to the stupidity factor vs a purely moral factor.
Chloe hacking government websites Quote: With Lex though you know he could have been lying about killing Clark for the sake of humanity. Everything he says is subject to question.
On the other side of the coin we have Lex killing what he believes to be an alien threat to the entire human race. Reminds me of the Reaper show. The dude was going to ask the devil a question, and the devil reminded him that everything he was bound to say was going to be a lie since he was after all the devil. __________________ |
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