Have to love how Mother dearest started off the light and dark sides for these kids right from the start when she wrapped them. Jacob in light, his brother in dark.
Noticed something interesting about language this episode as well. Was that Latin the two women were speaking in the beginning? It just switched to English for no apparent reason other than the comfort of the viewer. Then something occurred to me. Thinking way back to season 2 or 3, Hurley had that surreal dream where Jin was speaking English for a second and when Hurley comments on it, Jin tells him no, 'You're speaking my language'. Push ahead to more recently with Dogen saying how he hates the way English feels on his tongue and yet he spoke it perfectly with Jack and others after saying that. I think we may(or maybe it was just me) have been taking it for granted that all these characters have been speaking English the entire time. Maybe after some sort of trigger people gain a universal dapter for speech on the island. It could be something ingested, like when Claudia shared the meal with Mother right before the switch to English.
It's also clear now that the smoke monster isn't exactly Jacob's brother. He merely assumes that shape for dealings with Jacob(and Richard, back in the good ol days). I'm really curious how that monster was created exactly and if we're going to be told exactly how Jacob's brother being thrown in there made the monster, whether that's what became of his soul or some sort of reincarnation theory or his light pushing into the source creating an opposite reaction or whatever. They will probably leave it as is so the fans can speculate. I ain't mad at em. Maybe the best description of what happened to the brother could be called husking. That spark of light in each man got torn out of the body and because of how 'special' Mother claimed him to be, that light was rejected and cast out.
As for his name? Maybe we haven't heard it yet because he doesn't have one? Mother had no plan for her or the boys to be involved with outsiders. Maybe she didn't feel he needed one. I'm thinking we shouldn't assume he has a name any more than we should assume we've been hearing English the whole time.
We never heard Mother's name either. If she does have one, we should take up a pool now. We can start with Eve, Lilith and Rebeccah and build on that, because frankly, the Biblical imagery and possibility still remain. If you want to go on the Egyptian bend, we can start with Isis and Tewaret. Place your bets.
Something else I found interesting as well was how the brother could see dead people like Hurley(and to a lesser extent Miles), while Jacob cannot. If we tossed Hurley or Miles into the source would they(their souls or essences more correctly) become smoke monsters too?
Goofy side thoughts on smokey too: Are we sure there's only one? Does it have to stay on one place or can it seperate and show up as multiple people?
Parting shots with the last three hours just around the corner.
>Are we getting an explanation for the numbers finally?
>I just saw a preview clip that had 'who is 67?' on a piece of paper, so I'd say we're definitely going to revisit the lighthouse for a better look at the names and it would not surprise me one bit if those mirrors are fixed. They probably aren't or maybe some people can see the images without the help of mirrors? Have to wait and see.
>Are we going to find out Aaron's importance in all this(if he had any to begin with)?
>I also think we're going to revisit the idea of anchors as well, in conjunction with the rules and abilities of the island(ie; Jacob and his brother not being allowed to kill each other, Ben and Widmore having the same rule, mothers dying after giving birth, the cloned rabbits from the Dharma vid, Desmond having Penny as an anchor while Daniel had Desmond as his, etc etc). Anchors were definitely not explored thoroughly for my tastes, and I think they'll help to explain alot with the different timelines and how these certain individuals and similar events in different realities are linked and such. For a sampling, we may just revisit to Walt making a Polar bear appear on the island, and anchoring could help explain it. __________________
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Posted: 13 May 2010 07:19
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Indeed, indeed.
I admit the biblical references appear to be obvious, but something in the back of my mind says that's not the direction the finale will take.
It wasn't Latin, it was Spanish. I can't be certain since it's been a while since my last spanish class...but she said mi nombre es claudia, so that kinda sold it for me.
I believe the Island has only moved a few times. Originally it was in the Mediterranean. This would explain the Spaniards wrecking there, the Egyptian statue, and Richard. For some reason later on the island moved wot where 815 crashed, and then again between LAX and Guam. As I think about it...those points make a triangle...to make a square or rectangle, it seems like the bermuda traingle would be the next one...but that might be more of my tiredness talking
Also, that light. Jacob's Brother said using a wheel and system to access it. Does that have any relation to the wheel Ben and Locke rotated to move the island? That would explain how it would get from the Mediterranean to where 815 crashed...
We also know who that kid is Locke has been seeing. Can't believe I didn't make the connection of him not appearing until Jacob died till I saw him as a kid.
I do believe Smokey can split--I don't remember what episode it was but I remember seeing a little wisp of him flying through the forest at one point.
As for the #'s I just had a wild thought--could they be the ages where Jacob met the people that they are associated with? We should look into that--and by we, I mean you--because I'm too tired. :P they add up to 108 (108 minutes for the button).
Another thing I just thought of, oceanic 815. it includes the numbers 8 and 15. Ford and Reyes. but added together, they make 23. Shephard...
oy! my brain popped!
as for the babies and the anchors, i have no idea. i believe we'll have to wait and see.
Also...how did Real Whidmore get to the Island? That's been bugging me for a while... __________________
"Any man can overcome adversity. If you truly want to test a man's character, give him power." — Abraham Lincoln
Quote: Jacob's Brother said using a wheel and system to access it. Does that have any relation to the wheel Ben and Locke rotated to move the island?
That is exactly the same donkey wheel Locke and Ben used to wind up in that Middle Eastern desert.
Quote: could they be the ages where Jacob met the people that they are associated with?
I like your thinking but that is very doubtful. Hurley, Sawyer and Kate would have all been #8 if that were the case.
Quote: how did Real Whidmore get to the Island?
Good question. He was a youngster playing as military with Ellie and a couple 'Others'. I'm not sure they ever made clear exactly why or how he became aware of the island to explore it in the first place though. Have to wait and see if this is covered as well. __________________
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Posted: 14 May 2010 20:40
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Not official, but definitely worth sharing. Great editing by YouTube user ttheblackbox:
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Posted: 14 May 2010 21:28
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I hate to say it, but I wasn't that crazy over the Jacob smoke monster brother episode. Say I don't know if you guys mentioned this but they never mentioned the brother's name did they?
Anyway I hope there is more of a sci-fi ending. At this point it looks more supernatural and just kind of made up. I'd like to feel like I had a chance at guessing the answers to what's going on on Lost and not just the writers made it up toward the end. Mixing Biblical or mythology is fine of course. That way I know I had a chance of guessing it. Just don't want stuff strictly from the writers imagination.
I'm failing to see at this point how the time travel ties into Jacob's story. Oh well I'll be waiting to see the last hour of Lost and hoping it all pans out after years of viewing. __________________
Quote: they never mentioned the brother's name did they?
Nope.
I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I want to be surprised. I want it to be something I never would have guessed and something I haven't seen before. I want that payoff piece or two of info that allows me to watch the whole thing again with a new set of eyes, as was promised by the creators. If it's something I've seen already or could have guessed at, I'm going to be horribly disappointed. __________________
Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
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Posted: 15 May 2010 19:26
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I'm with you pak, (sorry Tim). Too many tv shows baby the viewers giving them what they expect and obvious solutions. I wanted the show to evolve by itself and lead me around every corner and guess at every dilemma. This show has done that in spades and it should continue to do that up until the last second. __________________
"Any man can overcome adversity. If you truly want to test a man's character, give him power." — Abraham Lincoln
Guys don't get me wrong I want to be surprised, I just want to think the answers were based on something that exists already perhaps and not something the writers just pulled out of a hat like I wouldn't like if we were expected to believe everything happened just because Jacob was a magically the one or something. I want more of a sci-fi or existing mythological answer behind everything to tie it together. Like some kind of Einstein theory or something. Some existing scientific theories I guess. I'm not exactly sure how to word what I'm trying to say. I do want surprise I just want to think the answer was there. The closer it was without me being able to guess it the better I guess. __________________
We may actually be thinking along the same lines Tim. We all want to not be disappointed after investing the time. __________________
Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
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Posted: 20 May 2010 18:17
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Just before going to bed last night I realized something about Lost.
Smokey wants to destroy the island like he said in the latest episode. But Juliet ignited the H-Bomb, what if the Island is already destroyed...or moved? So now there's nothing outside of the Island like the Other Mother said? That'd infuriate Smokey. For that matter, we know that the people on the island don't know about the side verse, does Smokey? Did Widmore? (Does Desmond?) __________________
"Any man can overcome adversity. If you truly want to test a man's character, give him power." — Abraham Lincoln
I believe smokey needs that island out of all existence, and while he's standing on at least one version of it, it still exists somewhere.
If we go by Desmond's recent activities of rounding people up and making them 'see' the alt realities, then both Desmond and Widmore are/were well aware of the multiple timelines. Widmore sent him on that mission, though I'm not 100% clear on Widmore's intentions. __________________
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Posted: 22 May 2010 20:47
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What if they are all dead on the island, and only the alternate universe versions of themselves are alive? __________________
Quote: What if they are all dead on the island, and only the alternate universe versions of themselves are alive?
If there are alternate versions still alive, then only a version of them is dead. Are the versions we originally met the 'right' ones, or just ones we met? __________________
Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
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Posted: 24 May 2010 08:46
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SPOILERS.
That was amazing. It was ended perfectly.
Spirits who couldn't solve their problems alone in life receive a second chance to do so together before moving on. Pure genius.
Lost was a series that showed how even when the world the universe and everything is against you, you can make it with the right people by your side. __________________
"Any man can overcome adversity. If you truly want to test a man's character, give him power." — Abraham Lincoln
Got choked up a couple of times-lost it completely with the Charlie-Claire reunion(maybe better called a remembrance). Never thought I'd get that emotional over fictional characters. I still feel manly enough to admit all that.
As soon as it ended, I felt cheated. I immediately remembered Lindeloff and Cuse saying that these people were alive somewhere and not in Limbo or Purgatory, etc after so many people theorized along these lines. It took a moment to realize they hadn't lied at all. Jack's father said just enough to give it closure but not so much that consideration, speclation and further discovery are beyond reach.
That being said, I don't feel I've been given 'new eyes' to watch the series over with a brand new enlightenment. It wasn't quite that level of revelation. So while I do look forward to reviewing the entire thing again, I can let that sit until August when the final sets ship. To be clear, I'm not really disappointed in the slightest even though that one expectation was not met.
TV may never be the same.... __________________
Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
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Posted: 24 May 2010 18:06
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Spoilers *****************
That's weird because I thought you guys would be ticked. I mean it was great on a emotional level it was great character wise, but as far as answering questions.
Notta. Not a dang question got answered. How did they survive the nuclear blast if it didn't open some doorway into another dimension?
Why was Walt so special?
What the heck is the light?
Why does uncorking it destroy the island?
What did the time travel to the 70's have to do with anything?
What did Desmond's time travel have to do with anything?
What was the smoke monster's name?
What the heck was Jacob protecting? Yellow light?
I mean come on guys. I feel cheated. Seems like the writers made it up as they went along and then went for the emotional touchy feely stuff so we'd all forget about all the unanswered questions over the last 6 years.
The time travel was what intrigued me the most, and I wanted it to have a place in the ending.
The only thing I appreciated was the fact the characters were at last happy, and I liked the symbolism of Christian Shepherd leading them into heaven. Of course the way it was done I suppose you could believe whatever you wanted about that last scene. It was a little too much like the end of every Ghost Whisperer to me.
Don't get me wrong I enjoyed it on a emotional level seeing the characters reconnect. That was great, I'd just like to have a long talk to those writers about the answers they left. Makes me think they never knew the answers to start with. __________________
We've been given all the information we're going to get, barring a future movie project or tell-all book. I believe the idea is to leave the viewers who want to look deeper, something to actually look into and debate over with each other, if not just come to conclusions on their own about it. It's probably going to take some Herculean level of commitment to do enough detective work through the enhanced episodes, deleted scenes, creator interviews, special feature presentations and related reading to get every nuance down-task like that seems like what the internet was specifically created for.
As for making it up as they went along; of course they did. They didn't know they were making anything past a pilot in the beginning. They had some idea as to some topics that were going to be covered, some nifty visuals and plotlines, and supposedly the closing shot, but they definitely did not know every single detail from that starting point all the way through. They didn't even get focused on coherance until two(2 1/2) years ago when they decided what the stop point was going to look like and how they were going to arrive at it from the point they were at. The previous three years were alot of amalgamated mythologies and character details layered heavily on the first seasons' foundations, which they did just make up as they went along.
I still have quite a few unanswered questions I'd like an answer to myself- we should compile a list. __________________
Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
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Posted: 24 May 2010 21:07
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I would have been much happier if they could have at least explained what the yellow water was about, and how the time travel figured into everything.
I think a secret government conspiracy revolving around the dharma initiative and time travel would have rocked. __________________
Posted: 24 May 2010 21:34 Last Edited By: Aerolectric
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Sometimes, in order to answer one question you need to ask two more. I am so glad this story didn't end abruptly. It left a lot to the imagination.
I watched Jimmy Kimmel's interview with some of the cast afterward which revealed some things and was very funny. it's on ABC.com if you're interested --i'd watch it. It was also revealed here that there'd be more information given to us when the Blu-Ray DVDs come out.
I'm not sure why Walt was special but this was a question by an audience member and the answer will be on the blu-ray.
The light was Jack's grail. Everyone had a different problems they needed to solve that they couldn't do alone in life. So in death, before moving on, they did so together on the island. Fixing the light was Jacks. Saving Claire was Kate's, being with Sun to the end was Jin's, etc.
I think you're still viewing the island Tim, as an island. It's not, "it's a place where miracles happen" ~ Locke. It's a place for second chances. The island is the path between life and death, where you are "judged" for example.
The time-travel wasn't really time travel. Once the plane crashed, everyone "died" and that's when the real story began. Their spirits needed to come together and help solve each other's problems. UFOs could've landed if that would've helped one of them. Exotic matter, and all those explanations was to help throw everyone on the island off the idea that they were "dead". That way, they'd be able to go through what they imagined was "life" in order to solve their problems. When Lapidus, Sawyer, Kate, and Miles (i think that's it?) left the island, the came "back to life". and lived out the rest of their lives somehow--we don't know. we do know that the flash sideways was actually a separate "island" if you will. a place where they all met once they all died and could move on. together.
I love Target's commercial with the smoke monster and then advertising smoke alarms. Brilliant. The smoke monster wasn't a biblical creature of evil, he was the wall. The obstacle. The thing everyone feared but fought against anyway. The smoke monster's real name was Failure.
Jacob was, how can I put this...the good intentions of everyone. His grail, was to help others achieve theirs, and in doing so, protect Jack's. To protect Jack's purpose, he needed to protect the light.
The point of the show can be quoted from Jack's speech in the pilot. "If we can't learn to live together, then we're going die alone." When the plane crashed, they DID all die alone, broken, and LOST. Now that they learned to live (not technically) together, they can move on. __________________
"Any man can overcome adversity. If you truly want to test a man's character, give him power." — Abraham Lincoln
I'm going to write a review of Lost mentioning this more clearly because SOO many people who watched it didn't get it.
It's said how everyone needs to be fed answers in order to be satisfied but along comes a show that makes you think and people get all upset. Nothing to you Tim, this is in response to other people i've seen.
They mixed science fiction with philosophical morality. Not just put them together, but really blended them. It's amazing. Those writers and those actors are gods. haha. __________________
"Any man can overcome adversity. If you truly want to test a man's character, give him power." — Abraham Lincoln
Are you sure they were supposed to be dead from the first crash. I took it they all died at different points and just met later in the alternate world. Hugo and Ben apparently had memories of living out their lives because he mentioned that Ben was a great number two, and then there's Desmond having went off the island to have a child. __________________
When I have my day off tomorrow, I'm going to rewatch it and be doing my own review as I'm watching it.
Prepare yourself. __________________
Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
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Posted: 27 May 2010 05:28
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I was going through the episode again, cross referencing with Lostpedia, remarking about every little nuance and detail and theory and coincidence and so on when several things occurred to me. One is how much fun this show has been for me, letting me stretch my own imagination and making discoveries along the way. This led to the realiziation that it is not my place to take that fun away from others, which goes with the final discovery for me, which is: I don't have all the answers. I think I have a majority of it, but certainly not all. For me to be a tour guide through that last episode, would mean actually that I was guiding people through the whole series.
I'll give you a for-instance.
The episode opens up with a series of characters going through parallel constants( Jack preparing to heal and kill Locke at the same time, Sawyer contending with the mirror and woman he damaged, etc) while we got the journey of Christian's casket threaded through it. It then became important to note that this was Eloise's church, where Jack was going to originally have his dad's funeral, where Eloise told Ben to retrieve them all for the return trip to the island and Ben told Jack about St Thomas and it also houses the Lamp Post Dharma station, which then leads into a discussion about Narnia books, Desmond's meeting Penny, Desmond's original flashes, constants, the connection between various bright lights throughout the series, the symbols in the stained glass, etc etc etc.
I really don't think I'll be doing anyone a service unraveling all of that, which if done properly would be a lengthy book instead of just a review or in-depth(and lengthy still) analysis as I've done here before.
Instead I will just respond to a few items here and offer to discuss at length any single items anyone likes, to the best of my ability.
-----------------------------------------------
Quote: Why was Walt so special?
That's actually two questions for the price of one. If we're talking about his 'ability', it wasn't just Walt. Many children had the same (unconfirmed) ability to manifest things on the island as he did. If we're talking about why Walt was kidnapped, it has seemed to me for awhile now that this was done to manipulate Michael into doing things that needed to be done by him specifically. Whether this was directly from Jacob's command or just Ben has never been made clear, but I would go with Jacob.
Quote: What the heck is the light?
This would take a book to answer. The official name of it is 'the Source'.
Quote: Why does uncorking it destroy the island?
Pure speculation, but here's my take. When Desmond pulled the stopper, all the water ran out and then everything went red. I would have to imagine that the water creates a seal between our plane of existence(the creation side) and whatever that is on the other side of the drain that started seeping out once the barrier was gone. Consider that pulling the plug on a smaller similar drain was how Ben called smokey to take revenge on Keamy's crew for the murder of his daughter and so Ben and pals could escape. Also consider the barrier theme with the pylon's that they had been using to corral smokey throughout the series. Smokey was perhaps an 'agent' of that force beyond the drain, which perhaps is best described simply as destruction. Uncorking the island allows destruction in, which we saw start taking the island apart and we can assume once the island was finished that the rest of the planet would follow if left unchecked.
Quote: What did the time travel to the 70's have to do with anything?
Ever hang out with a large group of friends when you were younger and when you get bored, you start asking each other for suggestions or make suggestions yourself and somehow nobody makes their mind up so you just wind up at a fallback hang-out like one friend's basement, or a certain diner, or a poolhall or bar or where-ever? Perhaps the island worked on a similar principal as we saw with Desmond's flashes. That being that he would shift between relevant places and times until he found his constant(namely Penny). without whom he would have suffered the same fate as some of the people on the freighter and Charlotte; the nosebleeds, the mental deterioration and eventually brain-death. When Ben moved that donkey-wheel and the island was skipping across space-time, it's my belief that the places it was visiting along the way were relevant to multiple people at the same time- it bounced around all over the place trying to settle on what different people may have all needed at the same time, it starting becoming more and more erratic, losing more and more stability until Locke set it right. I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that this created something of a constant between Ben and Locke as well. Winding up in the 70's just happened to be where they were at when Locke stopped the time-space skip.
Quote: What did Desmond's time travel have to do with anything?
Desmond had to go through it, to help ease other people's transitions through it.
Quote: What was the smoke monster's name?
According to a clip I saw on E!, from an insider, his original name in the script was Samuel which they chose after filming to never share, as it improved the storytelling and mystery. His name at no time was ever Esau. My bad.
Quote: What the heck was Jacob protecting? Yellow light?
The barrier between creation and destruction.
Quote: I think you're still viewing the island Tim, as an island.
Aero, the island...is an island. A very special island with special rules and an inconsistency with what we know about every type of science and physics imaginable, but an island nonetheless. Not a metaphor or alleghory, an actual land mass, yes, in this realm of existence. Go back and listen to what Christian tells Jack at the end of the finale again.
Quote: The time-travel wasn't really time travel.
The story falls apart without it being time travel. They did in fact travel through time in the main timeline, while time does not exist except as a concept in the flash sideways non-series of events.
Quote: Once the plane crashed, everyone "died"
This is again, huge. Another book would be needed to explain it. On the one hand, we have to take into account Jacob selecting and touching those survivors as his candidates so in this, it now becomes plausible that they could survive the crash. On the other hand, consider that Jack dragged himself back to the very same place he 'woke' after the crash- in his nice clear suit, barely a scratch on him, absolutely nowhere near the crash site with Vincent waking him at Christian's prodding(and I don't remember Vincent being a candidate either). This is one of those things I get stuck on. Christian says those things really happened, and yet it's very hard to accept that. Just like Ben, I'm gonna have to stick around and work this out for myself.
Quote: Jacob was, how can I put this...the good intentions of everyone.
The people's lives that Jacob and his brother affected and manipulated would suggest that he lived outside of and seperate from the wants and needs and intentions of everyone else involved and that the cause and effect relation between them is actually reversed from him being a product of them.
Quote: The smoke monster wasn't a biblical creature of evil, he was the wall. The obstacle.
I completely disagree. The monster was a small taste of the destruction from the other side of the drain.
------------------------------------------------
Of course, I am not the final arbiter on these things. You'll have to decide for yourselves what makes sense or not and again, if anyone has a topic or subject or event they'd like to go over, let me know. __________________
Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
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Posted: 27 May 2010 05:30
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And as it turns out, that is now probably the longest post I've made on any of your boards Tim. So much for 'short and sweet'. __________________
Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
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Posted: 27 May 2010 09:02
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When two opposing theories make sense, more information is needed. (bummer)
I guess it's possible for Smokey to be chaos and the wall...
From what I can tell, you're point of view is consistent with the information we've been given so far and it's definitely possible. (i personally enjoy my version more but hey)
I've got nothing to argue that's worth it so I guess we'll need to see what extra information we'll be given on the Blu-Ray. (it might be the first time I watch the commentaries all the way through)
One other thing I noticed. I think Pak, that both you and I thoroughly enjoy (maybe slightly competitively) trying to understand fringe sciences and paranormal to supernatural events in these type of shows. However what we chose to reply to first was the emotional response we received from knowing and struggling with the characters for these past 6 years. I think that really says something there. Men of faith or men of science...is it too much to ask for both? __________________
"Any man can overcome adversity. If you truly want to test a man's character, give him power." — Abraham Lincoln
Quote: Men of faith or men of science...is it too much to ask for both?
It's not too much to ask for both-it may be impossible to avoid actually. Just as there no totally good or bad people, there are probably no people who are either totally faith or science. __________________
Beneath this mask is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea Mr Creedy and ideas are bulletproof.
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Posted: 27 May 2010 16:21 Last Edited By: Tim
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Interesting read pak. I still wanted a more straight forward ending, but I've never been into the whole idea that truth is dependent on the person which is a whole other discussion. I like some room for speculation but not to have to speculate answers for questions they promised would be answered a long time ago.
I wish I could have stayed up to watch those alternate endings they were going to show on that late show.
Now I wonder if they'll be a motion picture and will it be just as confusing? __________________
Maybe the best description of what happened to the brother could be called husking. That spark of light in each man got torn out of the body and because of how 'special' Mother claimed him to be, that light was rejected and cast out.
